Scarcity is a policy choice — one liberals need to reject and replace with abundance, according to journalists Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson in their new book, Abundance. They say that by building a wall of bureaucracy in front of growth, Democrats have created an affordability crisis, hindering their own progressive goals and leading voters to flee blue cities and states. Kara talks to Klein and Thompson about concerns around equity and access; the tech industry’s culpability in all of this; which Dems are best positioned to pursue an abundance agenda; and how pursuing abundance can help fight the Trump-Musk agenda of cruelty.

Klein hosts the popular New York Times podcast The Ezra Klein Show and writes an accompanying column on the intersection of politics, policy and society. Thompson is a staff writer at The Atlantic, writes the weekly Work in Progress Newsletter, and hosts the Plain English podcast.

Correction: Ezra Klein was a founder of Vox.com, a news site created in 2014. He was not a co-founder of Vox Media, the company that publishes On With Kara Swisher.

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